Sartar (suite), par Jeff:
In HQG, we dropped carl, cottar, and thrall. I wish I had done that in the Guide to be honest. I don't think those are even good translations of the Orlanthi terms.
Carl just means "free man" - which is fine, but that already exists in English. I suspect the Orlanthi word for "free person" is a pretty important word for them. Greg and I hypothesised that it is something like Karling, but honestly that's just a cheap use of Old German. And I agree that Theyalan is not PIE (Proto-Indo-European) - for one thing the names we have don't come anywhere close to it.
Cottar means "someone who lives in a cottage" - which isn't quite what a semi-free landless tenant in Sartar is. I like semi-free because ties into Free. Also I think that is the Orlanthi word.
Thane - Greg operated on the belief it meant "horse man" when actually it means "servant" - which is not the basis of the title.
Thrall - another Norse word when we have a perfectly good English word "slave", "Unfree" might work better though as I suspect that is the Orlanthi word.
So until I find a linguist I enjoy working with who doesn't just want to make PIE but creates something that sounds Orlanthi - I am happy mainly using good English words.
> Is Sartar's title of "Prince" (instead of, say, High King or the like) due to some Western influence?
Nope. Just a literal translation of "Princeps" or "First".
Note Wiki: Princeps (plural: principes) is a Latin word meaning "first in time or order; the first, foremost, chief, the most eminent, distinguished, or noble; the first man, first person". As a title, "princeps" originated in the Roman Republic wherein the leading member of the Senate was designated princeps senatus. It is primarily associated with the Roman emperors as an unofficial title first adopted by Augustus in 23 BC. Its use in this context continued until the reign of Diocletian at the end of the third century. He preferred the title of dominus, meaning "lord" or "master". As a result, the Roman Empire from Augustus to Diocletian is termed the "principate" (principatus) and from Diocletian onwards as the "dominate" (dominatus). Other historians define the reign of Augustus to Severus Alexander as the Principate, and the period afterwards as the "Autocracy".
> I wonder if in-universe, the same word is used for "King" as in "tribal King", and "King" as in "King of Dragon Pass". It's a linguistic oddity that the Prince of Sartar rules over a slew of (tribal) kings and queens.
So did the Roman Princeps, who ruled over kings, queens, and client republics.
Personally I currently think the Orlanthi have the following words:
Chief: this is the big man of a clan, and also the chief Orlanth priest for the clan. This is used in one version or another in every Theyalan culture.
King: this is the Rex of a tribe. This is the main title of a tribal king in Dragon Pass, Peloria, Ralios, and Fronela.
King: this is the paramount chief of a tribe. This is used mainly in Heortland, Maniria, and Umathela.
Queen: this is the priestess-leader of an Esrolian city or tribe AND the ranking high priestess of Ernalda.
Prince: this is the "first leader" of a group of tribes or clans. A prince can also be a Rex "over" all the other tribal rexes.
And each is a different word. And to get more complicated, the same word gets used regardless of whether the office holder is male or female (Prince Kallyr, King Leika, etc.), and there is another word that means consort-of-<office>.
> Can I get a little more idea / context on what is the difference between the two kings?
At the risk of gross simplification:
An Orlanth Rex needs to be acclaimed by the priests of the tribe, but once acclaimed he has a LOT of power over them. That's Alakoring's magic. You better select the best person for the job, because once he is there, he has the power to compel. Sartar - surprise surprise - was Orlanth Rex, and so are his heirs (including Argrath). You agree to make Tarkalor Prince, and he has the power to give Yelmalio land and let the Yelmalio cultists form their own tribe.
A non.-Rex king is just the paramount chief. The chiefs agree that Big Chief gets to be king. But Big Chief is just that - a big chief. The priests can oppose him and even bring him down. Same with the chiefs. The chiefs and priests have the real power, not the king. This was the situation in the First and Second Age.
Now poor old Temertain wasn't this. He never performed the final step of his acclamation, to begin with. And the Lunars weren't going to let him be the Orlanth Rex of Sartar - they were much happier with him being the *almost qualifies as Prince* Prince. Sure eventually he'll get around to finishing the ceremony that gives him power. But Estal Donge is so captivating! And look - iron Brithini statuary!
If we wanted a purely Gloranthan set of titles, we can guess that the Orlanthi use the following (I am not sure whether Theyalan language is gendered or not, so am just using "man" as the default for person even though that is probably incorrect):
Free man - this is a full member of the community, male or female. These households do not need to serve someone else to survive.
Unfree man - this is someone who needs to serve someone else to survive.
Horse man - this is a member of the martial aristocracy, who is given land and/or livestock by others so that they might be full-time professional warriors.
House man or hall man - this is a personal bodyguard of a high status person. I increasingly use "palace" instead of "hall" but the terms are basically synonymous. "Big House" might be best.
God-talker - this is somebody who serves as a part-time holy person. They speak "to" the gods.
God-voice - this is somebody who serves as a full-time holy person. They speak "for" the gods.
Wyter-voice - this is the leader of a clan or kinship group. Also called Chief God Voice for the kinship group.
War Lord - this the tribal ruler.
Earth queen - this is the high priestess of the Ernalda cult.
Storm King's voice - this is the tribal ruler of the Rex subcult.
And so on. Some of these terms were around since the Dawn or even the God Time (free, unfree, god-talker, god-voice, war lord), others are later developments (horse man, hall man, Storm King's voice, etc.)
+, dans le même sujet sur FB
My purpose in the original post was to point out how Greg originally described Sartar, and how Sartar was described in Greg's stories and writings. Which means cities, roads, and a wealthy ruling dynasty. All of that got lost when the Lunars occupied Sartar (longer in our lifetime than in Sartar itself).
None of this should be new to anyone who read HQG or RQG, except that the implications of how important trade was to Sartar only really becomes apparent now that it is liberated. If your assumption was that the HW material described life for the rebellious Sartarites during the Occupation, that's fine - it just means that things are going to be changing a lot now that the Sartarites rule their own cities.
> Jordan Etherington When you say citizens had access to a portion of the public stores, do you mean like a social safety net?
Famine is a huge threat for Gloranthan cities - if you consider that 1 in 8 harvests is a failure. So the city ring purchases/takes/receives grain and livestock from the tribes and stores it. Citizens are entitled to a portion of that grain and meat - based not on need but simply a right off citizenship.
Speculators in times of famine are another concern, so cities try to hold onto as much of its foods supplies as possible until it is necessary. At the same time, many citizens depend on their allotment of city food - so obviously there is tension there.
Although this applies to Jonstown, it could just as easily apply to Pavis, Boldhome, etc.:
The city of Jonstown, recognizing long term fluctuation in the food supply, purchases and distributes a large percentage of the city’s food in order to stymie speculators and maintain stability. Though this is paid for through taxes and service, access to nominally free food is a cherished right of the Jonstown citizenry.